Narrator: Kennedy sent his family home, out of harm’s way. “I was just thinking,” he answered, “if my mother hadn’t had any more children than her first four, she would have nothing now. It seemed to many that Roosevelt had put the fox in charge of the chicken coop. The conclusion of The Kennedys follows the Kennedy story from the glamorous imagery of Jack and Jackie Kennedy’s White House — carefully cultivated by both the president and first lady — through the national tragedies of the assassinations of John and Robert Kennedy, to the dark days of Edward Kennedy’s accident at Chappaquiddick and his unsuccessful 1980 presidential campaign, which may have finally freed him of the burden of his father’s ambition. Khrushchev had warned the President, if he tried to intervene in Berlin, there would be war. John F. Kennedy (archival): We are confronted primarily with a moral issue. Hon. Midge Decter, political essayist: Then, there was Teddy, who was going to the Senate. Bobby Kennedy is going to be Attorney General of the United States.”. That was a real situation between Bobby and Lyndon Johnson. And they resented it. Arthur Schlesinger Jr., special assistant to President Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy biographer Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: My father became more quiet at that time and more introspective. Valerie Linson, Post-Production Supervisors We can help them — we can give them equipment, we can send our men out there as advisers — but they have to win it, the people of Vietnam against the Communists. Burke Marshall, Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights: He thought it was not just the future of the presidency, but the future of this country that was at stake, and so, he urged the President very strongly to go ahead with the bill. Everything now depended on the California primary. Some of them have been glorious, some have been very sad. William Albert Allard/National Geographic Image Collection Narrator: Around the world, Robert Kennedy was seen as the inheritor of his brother’s legacy. She would keep house in Brookline. Rita Dallas, Joseph P. Kennedy’s Nurse: And that evening, Eunice and Teddy came. This documentary shows the triumphs and horrible tragedies and how all of these things effected the family personally. He gave us strength in time of trouble, wisdom in time of uncertainty and sharing in time of happiness. Doris Kearns Goodwin, biographer: He was passing by the reviewing stand, where his parents were standing. Geof Thurber, Heart Punch Studio, Narration Recording Mississippi State Archive Phillip Whitehead  He was lying down. Instead, without getting out of his car, he turned around and drove home again. I got to go to Texas next week and it’s just a pain in the rear end and I just don’t want to go. He can help this nation. Rita Dallas, Joseph P. Kennedy’s Nurse: When the President was assassinated, the family became very stoic. He was implored to come to Texas, where two factions of the Democratic Party were at each other’s throats. Mary E. Fenton John Seigenthaler, Administrative Assistant to RFK: His brother’s presidency was the most important thing in his professional life. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: I remember there being a discussion at home with my father about whether or not we should be moved. But,” he said, “on the second ballot,” he said, “I’d like to have you with me.” I said, “Mr. In two two-hour segments on PBS, director and producer Susan Bellows and her team chronicle the life of the 35th president with a near-miraculous balance of … Narrator: It was Jack Kennedy’s first political defeat and it would be his last. John Lewis, RFK campaign: Robert Kennedy came in and spoke— spoke from his soul, the depths of his soul. Narrator: In 1960, Jack Kennedy began a relationship with Judith Campbell. S1E1 Episode 1 S1E1. It had been President Kennedy’s bill, but it had taken Johnson’s skill to push it through. Trust funds would allow them to follow their father into public life. INA Institut National De L’Audiovisuel Robert F. Kennedy (archival): I was involved in the question of a struggle in Vietnam and I’m sure that administration of President Kennedy made mistakes in which I was personally involved; so, I think that, if there’s the question of the blame or the responsibility for the problems of Vietnam, there’s enough blame to go around for everybody. That’s all there was to it. In London, Kathleen volunteered for the Red Cross and fell in love. Milton Katz, professor, Harvard Law School And he had chartered an aircraft — I think it was a Dove, I think it was called in those days — and, apparently, they got into turbulence over the Alps and the plane crashed. Sheriff, Kern County, California (archival): Well, absolutely. John F. Kennedy (archival): Ignore that religious thing. LOOK Magazine From his parents and from his older brothers and sisters, Joe and Kathleen and Jack, he received an inspiration which he passed on to all of us. He’d been there and, of course, he had, so he was going to straighten them up and he did. John Seigenthaler, RFK advisor: Well, by the time he got there, Gene McCarthy had already been knocking on the door and many people in the liberal community had both arms and both legs around Gene McCarthy and were kissing him on the neck and biting on the ear. Lyndon Baines Johnson Library Pierre Salinger, White House press secretary But Khrushchev was in no mood to bargain. He pushed on to Oregon and lost. “Bobby,” his proud father boasted to a friend, “is hard as nails.”. And I gave them to him and talked with him for a while and then, he seemed to be ready to go and so, I closed the door and I waited outside, just — and I heard him, just sobbing. Edward M. Kennedy, Senator (D-MA) There is something else going on.” And he said, “When you find out, grab your balls.”. The war in Vietnam would grow and become the most controversial legacy of the Kennedy presidency. Later that day, Kennedy prepared to be interviewed by Walter Cronkite about the growing American commitment in Vietnam, where Kennedy had now sent some 16,000 military advisers. Frank Capria, Additional Footage Coordination The New York Times He was hard-working, concerned with public issues, imaginative. And, as it happened, he came out and he looked me into my face, but I had a feeling that he didn’t even recognize me, he was so dazed. Explore the Kennedy family's rise to power and how personal relationships within the Kennedy dynasty shaped national and global events from the Cold War to the Wall Street crash. Then came Kathleen and Eunice — five children in six years. We are introduced to the elder children and one daughter. Richard Goodwin, Assistant Special Counsel to JFK: And I remember watching him on television that night and there was a kind of an ease and a grace that he had that really had been missing, in a way. I’ve got to go, 'cause I’ve got thousands of fans waiting for me, I hope. Robert Kennedy was smaller and shyer than his brothers and he felt he had the most to prove. The sequel to his pioneering Life on Earth, it is a study of the ways in which living organisms, including humans, adapt to … He said, “Boy, am I glad to know you. Jackie was the one responsible for all the very fine entertainment. Rose Kennedy (archival): This is an honor and a pleasure that I’ve never had before, to introduce my son on a platform. I can now retire from politics, after having had “Happy Birthday” sung to me in such a sweet, wholesome manner. Sergo Mikoyan, son of First Soviet Deputy Premier: So Khrushchev came to the conclusion that the only way to save Cuba was to install there several Soviet missiles, which would deter a potential American invasion. Was this review helpful to you? Narrator: Even the President’s press secretary was unaware of the missile crisis when Kennedy instructed him to tell the press he had a cold and would return to Washington. At home, the Kennedy team promised to support civil rights and push for aid to education, health care for the elderly. It’s Edward Moore Kennedy and I say it makes no difference what your name is…. Petrified Films, Inc. One of them was Mary Jo Kopechne. John Hazard, Sound Barry Pepper did a great job as Bobby Kennedy. I'm not sure if in reality Bobby was as saintly as depicted in the series. Robert F. Kennedy (archival): I’m going to remain on as a United States senator, representing the State of New York and I’m going to support the Democratic ticket for 1968 of President Johnson/Hubert Humphrey. But since he did not yet even live in New York State, some called him a “carpetbagger.” Liberals remembered he had once worked for Joseph McCarthy and Jewish voters were suspicious of any son of Joseph Kennedy. They weren’t a part of the neighborhood and Joe Kennedy loved it that way. He died on November 18, 1969. If the directors really wanted to embarress the Kennedys (some controversy over whether everything depicted was accurate) they could've brought Ted into the story. He spent the rest of the war struggling to recover from his injuries and malaria. Cecil Stoughton Rita Dallas, Joseph P. Kennedy’s Nurse: Teddy went upstairs and he said, “Dad, there was an accident.” And he said, “There was a girl in the car,” and he said, “She drowned.” He said, “It was an accident.” Narrator: Kennedy now had to find a way to differentiate himself from Eugene McCarthy and from Johnson’s hand-picked successor, Hubert Humphrey. Alfred Wertheimer Ladies Home Journal Narrator: A quarter of a million mourners filed through the Capitol Rotunda in a line that stretched three miles. Judith Campbell Exner In this compartment of his life, Kennedy was making friends inappropriate for a presidential candidate. It just didn’t seem within the comportment or dignity — at least the public comportment and dignity — of a future president. WPA Film Library, Inc. “Especially for those who are too young to remember the events of that day, our film shows how the Kennedy family became both legend and lightning rod for several generations of Americans.”. He was a Protestant and married. The substance didn’t change, but he had a kind of— he was at ease with himself. The good will he had courted vanished. Then, on the evening of March 31st, as Kennedy flew home to New York City, everything suddenly changed. On either side, of course, are the Papal Guards. George Tames The Mark Shaw Collection/Photo Researchers A month later, Fitzwilliam and Kick left England for a weekend in the South of France. The Bay of Pigs had been a humiliating failure. She didn’t want to lose her marriage. Newsreel Announcer (archival): The British Cunarder Aquitania arrives in New York harbor with two canvas-covered 12-pounders in plain sight, the first armed Merchantmen to steam into port. Doris Kearns Goodwin, biographer: Cortisone was probably a critical event for Jack Kennedy, both in the treatment of the his illness and in his perception of himself. And I think she legitimately wanted to keep her children free from that kind of celebrity, so she would find herself, alternately at times, wishing the press would write her up and other times, saying, “Don’t touch me. Phillip Whitehead John Lewis, RFK campaign: The evening of April 4, 1968, we were in the midst of organizing a rally, [an] outdoor rally in a transitional neighborhood. John F. Kennedy (archival): Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans, born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed and to which we are committed today, at home and around the world. American Dynasties: The Kennedys Explore the Kennedy family's rise to power and how personal relationships within the Kennedy dynasty shaped national … Narrator: Kennedy was hailed as a hero during his visit to Berlin in the summer of 1963. John F. Kennedy (archival): I believe, not in an America that is “first, but,” “first, if,” “first, when,” but “first, period.”. Sen. John Tunney, friend of Ted Kennedy: President Kennedy had a saying that, as a politician, “If you see blue sky, go for it.” And, in Teddy’s case, the “blue sky” was a seat that had been vacated by Jack when he’d taken over the presidency and so, Ted had a real opportunity that might not get again. J. Chris Hoge Joe, Jr. had hoped to run for office in 1946. National Archives and Records Administration And, most important for the future of his presidency, he resolved to involve his brother Robert in all major decisions. You know, there are people who would kill to get into the United States Senate — that’s a very big job — and here is this not very bright, not very strong, not very imposing or impressive kid who was going into the Senate only because his name was Kennedy. Narrator: Just 15 years after he had persuaded Jack to plunge into politics, Joseph Kennedy was about to see all three of his surviving sons holding high office. The FBI Director, J. Edgar Hoover, asked to see the President alone. John Kennedy had been elected partly because of his promise to secure equal rights for black Americans, yet once in office, he had sought to avoid too great an involvement in the politically divisive struggle— but events overtook the Kennedys. Professor Milton Katz, Harvard Law School: He never felt himself “fully accepted” when he was an undergraduate at Harvard. [audience boos], John F. Kennedy (archival): Well, I think that — [audience boos] oh, I don’t mind — I must say that we shouldn’t boo because it’s a — I am running for the presidency, which is a powerful office, given great power under the Constitution and it is a matter of concern to a good many people. Edward McCormack, Democratic Senatorial Candidate (archival): I ask, if his name was Edward Moore, with his qualifications — with your qualifications, Teddy — if it was Edward Moore, your candidacy would be a joke, but nobody’s laughing. Narrator: McCarthy was Irish and Catholic and had a big following in Boston, but he also had close ties to the Kennedys, so when the Republicans begged him to campaign for Lodge, he hesitated. Narrator: As America’s divisions over Vietnam deepened and the cost of conflict weakened Johnson’s War on Poverty, the Kennedy brothers were caught up in the national agony. His back was broken. One was that we shouldn’t be moved, because it would cause other people to panic if we were moved out of Washington; and the other one was that, if there were a nuclear war, none of us would want to be around afterwards, anyway. Michael Beschloss, Historian: Kennedy may well have known that the Mafia was trying to kill Castro at the same time as his brother was trying to prosecute the Mafia. He triumphed at the Boston Latin School, then went on to Harvard, where he was best remembered for the fierce competitiveness he would one day teach his sons; but he was Irish and Catholic and, therefore, not in the running for the most prestigious social clubs. And he used that to make sure that the people understood he was a war hero, even more of a war hero than he actually was, and that he had these kinds of family qualities that people were going to want to see in their politicians. Written by Doris Kearns Goodwin, biographer: Joe understood that whatever Jack’s qualities — which he was beginning to respect more and more — were, that he had to be marketed. Narrator: But, to Kennedy, Soviet missiles so close to the United States were intolerable. 1st Reporter (archival): Listen, what about this tour of the Fulton Fish Market? And then, there was the other brother they had to take care of. John F. Kennedy (archival): But I don’t agree with those who say we should withdraw. I believe it’s the best arrangement for our society. John F. Kennedy (archival): All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words, Ich bin ein Berliner. Narrator: Shortly after his election, Kennedy had been told of a secret CIA plan to send an army of Cuban exiles to overthrow Fidel Castro and rid the western hemisphere of its first Communist regime. This was the same spot on which John Kennedy had opened his campaign in January of 1960, and Robert Kennedy used his brother’s opening line. And I think, underneath, she knew Joe didn’t want to lose it, either. So, he pointed to it and I said, “There’s bad news in it.” I said, “Do you remember?” And he just looked at me and I said, “It’s about the President.” I didn’t say, “your son.” I said, “It’s about the President.” And he just went like this to the paper. First, he asked me to come back to Washington and I said no, that I couldn’t. Edward M. Kennedy (archival): How old is this little girl? The nation braced for the possibility of nuclear war. Patricia Seaton Lawford Kennedy clearly wanted the Cuban leader eliminated. And that’s when he told me, he said my phone probably wasn’t safe. Nobody’s laughing. A confident, popular John F. Kennedy is sworn in as the youngest ever elected American president, but he will have to rely on his brother, Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, to help him navigate the... Numbed by grief after the assassination of her husband, Jackie crafts JFK's legacy, while Bobby becomes a champion of the dispossessed and the family's next great political hope. (Enter your ZIP code for information on American Experience events and screening in your area.). That’s what happened to this man. Watch Now On ... Curse of the Kennedys. It did not ring true. No one identified with us of any consequence. Hon. And I said, “It’s on television,” so she just looked at me and she went into her room. Jen Holmes Narrator: Joseph Kennedy forced the network to back down. The terrorists, saboteurs, and corrupt government officials on the TV series 24 never caused its producer and co-creator Joel Surnow as much trouble as The Kennedys. Utilizing archival footage punctuated by contemporary interviews with comedy legends and scholars, this is the history of not only what makes us laugh, but how comedy has affected the social and political landscape throughout history. Robert F. Kennedy (archival): I want to thank my mother for that kind introduction. I saw them. He read Camus. Thank you very much. I mean, it was very hard to get people to understand that people were literally starving in Mississippi at that time, that there were people with no income. This focuses on the early days. Ivan Allen He was now a serious presidential contender. He was beginning to travel in parts of the country where he knew he needed to shore up his popularity, which was sagging because of the civil rights legislation. UPI/Bettmann Now, Jack would take Joe’s place and run for his grandfather’s old seat in Congress. Watch Now S1E2 Episode 2 S1E2. By 1938, Joseph Kennedy’s ceaseless self-promotion had begun to pay off. Christopher Li National Geographic Society This morning, he indicated that he wasn’t going to use the Oval Room. Billy Sutton: He was like everybody’s son, you know. Narrator: Roosevelt seemed just the sort of languid patrician of whom Kennedy had always been contemptuous, but FDR’s affable manner masked cold political judgment. Narrator: But for some at home, Kennedy’s talk of freedom abroad rang hollow. Doris Kearns Goodwin, biographer: I just remember feeling that sense that it was impossible that it could have happened, that somebody in the middle of the vitality of his life was struck down. 1st McCarthy campaign worker (archival): What? But now, suddenly, with Jack’s death and then Bobby’s death four years later- five years later, he has to suddenly become the holder of all of these dreams, frustrations, hopes, and it had to be an incredibly defining moment for him, to decide— could he still go on, be the happy-go-lucky good guy that he was or was he going to have to become something different? Dave Powers, campaign secretary: I would meet him at six o’clock and start off at the Boston Navy Yard and he would position himself at the main gate, shaking hands until they were all in there and I’d be passing out Kennedy campaign buttons. Narrator: More and more, Robert Kennedy found himself listening to advocates for the disadvantaged. Fred Dutton: The crowd was a little bit unruly, so I decided that there was a back route to go. Doris Kearns Goodwin, biographer: Jack Kennedy, growing up Irish Catholic as he did, had this profound sense of the importance of ritual, that the American people want pomp and circumstance when their president is about to be made president. John F. Kennedy launches a long-shot bid for power; the seemingly perfect candidate must confront the issues of his health, faith and fidelity if he is to have any chance of reaching the White House. Edward M. Kennedy (archival): Some of you have suggested that, for safety’s sake and for my family’s sake, I retire from public life. Narrator: The turnout was high and Latino voters went for Kennedy, 15-1. Horror. Franklin D. Roosevelt Library As he said many times, in many parts of this nation, to those he touched and who sought to touch him, “Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why?’ I dream things that never were and say, 'Why not?'. U.S. Department Of Defense/Norton Air Force Base The five Kennedy daughters were not exempt from the competitive spirit and ambition that ran through the family. Doris Kearns Goodwin, biographer: There was a frenzy in that environment, when he was out there, and that seemed to symbolize to a lot of Americans, I think, the fear that America itself was out of control, that we really didn’t have a lid anymore on our social problems and that revolution was really around the corner. I think he was engaged in a great internal struggle to reconcile his belief in God with what had happened to his brother. Molly Jacobs, The Kennedys is a coproduction of WGBH Boston and Thames Television, London. That evening, for the first time in history, a president would declare civil rights for black Americans a moral issue. And permit me to say that I support strongly the Constitution. Horror, because, after Dr. King, he was kind of the last hope for a sane and morally mindful direction in the country and I think, like many Americans, I just couldn’t believe it was happening again. It aired in the US last March. James Roosevelt, eldest son of FDR: Joe Kennedy wanted political power and so, the best way to get it was to make broad use of his contacts with Father, and he proceeded to do just that. Burke Marshall, assistant attorney general, civil rights We wanted him to run, but he never did, so now, we’re supporting Gene until the end. That’s what started us all the way up to Alaska. Louis Harris, pollster I run because I am convinced that this country is on a perilous course and because I have such strong feelings about what must be done and I feel that I am obliged to do all that I can. And the Ambassador would be wheeled out to the porch, so that we’d be able to watch him all the way. Hon. Ted Kennedy won the sympathy of the audience and the primary. The Kennedys is available for streaming on ReelzChannel, both individual episodes and full seasons. Elena Talton Hineck Edward M. Kennedy (archival): Today, I speak to all citizens of America, but I wanted to speak to you from home, here in Boston…. Evelyn Lincoln, Personal Secretary to President Kennedy: He loved politics, she hated politics. “You carry your village for him,” or “your county for him, and I’ll give you a little reward when I’m on my way back.”. Sen. Hubert Humphrey (archival): I feel like an independent merchant running against a chain operation. Narrator: The Kennedys were building their own political machine separate from the state party and very much a family enterprise. Available on My5 Upcoming Episodes Clips News Characters Competition About. The Soviets were secretly building bases in Cuba for nuclear missiles capable of striking New York, Chicago, Washington. It was too much. Jack Kennedy, fresh out of Harvard, continued his active social life, but he had begun to show an interest in foreign policy and his father saw an opportunity in Jack’s undergraduate thesis, “Why England Slept.” Joe Kennedy arranged for a friend to do extensive editing and promoted it hard. This is part of his curiosity about life. It was too late to enter most of the primaries. Narrator: But, in the spring of 1962, Kennedy’s risky behavior began to catch up with him. Robert Drew, producer, “Primary”: I think he liked the idea of something new and I think the idea of something new in which he would be the star or, at least, one of two stars. American Dynasties: The Kennedys Cesar Chavez, National Farm Workers Association: We were like the forgotten. 1,189 men were captured, 114 were killed. His campaign would be managed by his brother Robert. The Boston Globe Richard Goodwin, Assistant Special Counsel to the President: “You know, it’s absolutely crazy,” he says, “that two men, sitting on opposite sides of the world, have the power to destroy all of western civilization.” And it was really at that point— I think that was the turning point of Kennedy’s presidency. Instead, it would bring his presidency to the brink of disaster only weeks after it began. Narrator: Massachusetts rallied to the last of the Kennedy brothers, but across the country, many found his explanations inadequate, his speech mawkish. The details of that crisis and Kennedy’s handling of it would be examined and reexamined for decades and its impact upon him would profoundly change the way he and successors waged the cold war in the coming years. Narrator: John Kennedy’s legend was already settling upon Robert Kennedy, but he was shattered. “Now, it’s Teddy’s turn.”. Robert F. Kennedy (archival): So my thanks to all of you and now, it’s on to Chicago and let’s win there. John Kenneth Galbraith, economist, Harvard University and tutor, Winthrop House Then, moving on to London as Franklin Roosevelt’s ambassador to the Court of St. James — his popularity greatly enhanced by his large, photogenic family — Joe Kennedy seemed poised for the pinnacle, the presidency, his lifelong goal. I thought the Republicans would beat him in 1968 and I thought that it was Robert Kennedy’s opportunity and responsibility to run and get elected president. Charles Spalding, friend of Jack Kennedy: Finally, everybody— everything settled in the Lincoln Room, I think it was, the big [room]— when you turn left when you come in the door. Off-screen, Kennedy set his sights on the most seductive Hollywood star of all, Gloria Swanson. Have you got your book to read to Grandma this morning? First, he would call up and say, “How should one vote on this?” And I would give him my thoughts. His family had grown to nine children with the birth of Teddy in 1932. His main opponent was Senator Hubert Humphrey from neighboring Minnesota. Robert F. Kennedy (archival): Yeah, I know. Jack Copeland James Roosevelt, eldest son of Franklin D. Roosevelt He was put in charge of a new clandestine plan, Operation Mongoose. Joe still kept quiet in public, but in private, as the president-elect chose his Cabinet, he made his wishes known. You’re young, you can’t ever imagine you’re going to die and somehow, when John Kennedy died, there was that sense of the arbitrariness of fate, as if you could die, too. I was in the Navy,” he said, “and his grandfather and his mother came from here.” She said to me, “That’s remarkable, isn’t it? Joe became a flyer. John J. Burns Library, Boston College Library Of Congress Meanwhile, Kennedy would assault Lyndon Johnson. A saga of ambition, wealth, family loyalty and personal tragedy. Joseph P. Kennedy (archival): The horns of the dilemma are economic chaos and war and any step to prevent either of these is worthwhile taking. A tree planting in Canada required only a ceremonial gesture, but Kennedy dug in and badly strained his injured back. Michael Beschloss, historian Narrator: “Bobby wanted the presidency so much he could taste it,” an aide remembered, but Kennedy sided with his more cautious advisers. Thomas Hughes, Assistant to Robert Kennedy: When somebody proposed writing a book about the first Kennedy year, he said, "Why would anybody want to write a book about disasters. During Joseph Kennedy’s lifetime, no hint of what had happened to his daughter was ever made public. “We were hysterical about Castro at the time,” Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara later admitted. Thomas P. O’Neill Jr., U.S. Congress 1952-87: He said, “Gee, I don’t want to run against Eddie,” he says. William Walton, Kennedy family friend: People have always made such a great to-do over Marilyn’s associations with the Kennedys. AP/Wide World Photos Still, the President feared he had failed to convince Khrushchev of American resolve. The author is the man who stands behind what is there on the printed page. When his condition temporarily stabilized, he seemed more determined than ever to enjoy life. He would be dependent on massive injections of painkillers as he faced Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev in Vienna. Thomas P. O’Neill Jr., Massachusetts Legislature, 1936-52: To be perfectly truthful, he wasn’t much of a congressman. Rosemary emerged more seriously retarded and was sent to live in a nursing convent in the Midwest. Cesar Chavez, National Farm Workers Association: And then, he went from our headquarters to the hearings, so he wasn’t hiding the fact that he was pro-farm worker. And Jack was not quite like that himself. 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